ArcadeItalia.NET

Si dovrebbe cercare di fare le foto il più vicino possibile senza rendere le immagini sfuocate.
Le foto di quel post le ho trovate in rete, comunque si vede che sono state fatte impostando la macchina fotografica in modalità "ravvicinata".

soyl ha scritto:

Kernel ha scritto:Sticapperi che info bomba!
Sei la prima persona che sento dire una cosa di questo tipo. Ne sei sicuro?
Anche le molte recensioni parlano di situazioni perfette per ogni segnale in ingresso!

Sarebbe davvero una cosa terribile

È una cosa risaputa:

http://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/Beginners ... monitor.3F
http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic. ... 208#p86208

Trovami tu chi dice il contrario (non che ne abbia bisogno, avendo visto le cose di persona).

Quanto all'affidabilità, questi tri/quadri-sync recenti sono quasi tutti abbastanza sospetti di componentistica inferiore (leggi cinese/taiwanese) ed è davvero un bene che vengano usati a casa e poco piuttosto che a ritmo continuo in sala. Ma comunque l'idea di comprare un monitor nuovo ed essere al sicuro da guasti è ingenua. I problemi capitano lo stesso:

http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic. ... 72&start=0

Sarebbe meglio prendere oltre al monitor completo anche qualche telaio di riserva e magari anche quei componenti del telaio che poi saranno difficili da recuperare, in primis il trasformatore di riga.

tri-sync’s usually have more pronounced scan-lines and less colour depth than a dual-sync. Only really an issue for the very anal!

io non sono anal...

Magari scopri di esserlo quando è troppo tardi...

pucci ha scritto:io non sono anal...

Io neppure
Cmq ho mandato decine di mail ai vari venditori di CRT arcade sparsi nel mondo, bene che vada si spende nn meno di 650 euro a monitor (+dogana), se poi una volta acquistato ti rendi conto che si vede meglio nel caro 15khz ti giri un po di ball
In ogni caso sarebbe interessante poter vedere la differenza (se pur minima) tra un immagine 15khz su un tri-sync ed un classico monitor monofreq 15khz...

Kernel ha scritto:

dudunkle ha scritto:Secondo voi che risoluzione massima può raggiungere alla frequenza di 25 khz?

Per i 25KHz risoluzione max "512 x 384 @ 60Hz".

è quella dei 15khz e dei 31khz?

in rete ho trovato questa tabella

Horizontal Sync | Vertical Freq | Modo | Risoluzione |
15 kHz | 60 Hz | CGA | 320x200 |
25 kHz | 60 Hz | EGA | 640x350 |
31 kHz | 60 Hz | VGA | 640x480 |
38 kHz(35 kHz) | 60 Hz(56 Hz) | SVGA | 800x600 |
48 kHz(35 kHz) | 60 Hz(43 Hz i)| XGA | 1024x768 |
64 kHz | 60 Hz | SXGA | 1280x1024 |
75 kHz | 60 Hz | UXGA | 1600x1200 |

ma non credo sia correttisima.

andrebbe valutato quanti giochi MAME sfruttano le varie risoluzioni

What are the limitations of arcade monitors?

With a 15Khz monitor, there is an important limit. This is vertical resolution. Assuming a vertical sync range of 50-60 Hz, a 15Khz monitor can only display approx 250-300 lines. (this figure is arrived-at by dividing Hfreq by Vfreq, and allowing about 10 "wasted" lines for vertical flyback time) This is perfect for most older games. Any game which originally used a 15Khz monitor can of course be displayed at it's native resolution providing the VGA card can be configured to do so.
Some later games use high-res monitors and have vertical resolutions of 480 or higher. For these, we can enable interlacing and still display at the native resolution. An interlaced picture scans even and odd lines separately, so we can have 480-600 lines interlaced. For the same reason, to display a Windows desktop at 640 X 480 we need to interlace. Unfortunately this does not give a good result on a Windows desktop because interlacing causes horizontal lines which are 1 pixel wide (which may Windows screens have) to flicker at 30Hz. We can run Windows 3D games pretty well though, because games hardly ever contain this kind of regular line type of graphic, and the flicker is not noticeable.
So what about games with resolutions of 301-480 lines? Well we do have a problem here with a 15Khz monitor as we cannot display them with either non-interlaced (not enough lines) or interlaced (top/bottom borders too wide). So for these few games (which originally used 25Khz medium-res monitors), we have to resort to hardware stretching, which re-samples the screen and adjusts the size. Fortunately H/W stretch and interlace degrade a high-res picture less than a low-res one.
What about games with a vertical res of 240 or less?

A game which has a native vertical resolution of 240 will look exactly the same on an arcade monitor whether the monitor is running at a vertical resolution of 240 or less than 240. The reason is this: tweaked modes of less than 240 are configured with top-bottom borders to add to the total number of lines. This is necessary to keep below the 60Hz vertical scan limit. (as number of lines goes down, the time taken to display them goes down, therefore the Vfreq goes up) So either the video mode will have borders (<240 modes) or MAME will have borders and the result is the same, and it will be arcade-real. This is why the ArcadeVGA card does not contain many <240 line modes. They are quite unnecessary. As far as horizontal res goes, there is no issue with this and monitors, they can display any horizontal resolution (note we are talking resolution here not scan rate, which is always 15Khz). The issue here is that the VGA card dot clock needs to be adjusted to provide the correct line scan rate for the required resolution. So with low frequency (15Khz) monitors, we can sometimes run into the VGA card's lower dot-clock limit. (the ArcadeVGA card has no practical dot clock lower limit).

Vertical games on a horizontal monitor.

Providing the monitor is capable of displaying the resolution (rotated) then we still have a good picture. Although the scan lines are in the wrong direction, there is still a 1 to 1 correlation with the game pixels. So we can get away with this cheat usually. If you set the resolution to be exactly that of the game, with the V and H swapped, then the game will fill the screen. Now this is not exactly what you want because it will look very strange. (great on a horizontal game though). You need to deliberately introduce side borders. Easy to do: you just run at a higher horizontal resolution. Galaga runs fine at 352x288 for example. If you calculate the aspect ratio of the original game, this is pretty much the rotated equivalent of it. Bear in mind, though, that arcade monitors are designed to display approx 240 visible lines and we are asking it to display 288 lines in this mode. This means that something has to go, and what goes are the top/bottom borders, which are normally off the screen. So the picture will be taller than a 240 line picture.

What about vertical refresh rate?

If we are going to try to emulate a game board hardware exactly, there is something else to think about. We have sorted out our resolution to exactly match the game, so what else can there be? Answer: vertical refresh rate. The issue only applies to games that scroll the graphics screen, either horizontally or vertically. Unless we can match the refresh rate of the original game, we will get a kind of "ripple" effect when scrolling, as the rate of movement of the screen does not match the screen re-write rate. The way to eliminate this is match the refresh rate exactly. Fortunately almost all games used a 60Hz rate. A few, including Mortal Kombat, used other rates such as 53 Hz, necessary because they chose a higher vertical resolution. So we need to provide for this in our choice of perfect MAME resolutions.
Unfortunately it's not possible to get a 60Hz rate on resolutions of 256 lines, which are designed for vertical games on horizontal monitors, as there are too many lines to "fit in" in the time per frame.

Why can't you run your normal PC SVGA monitor at 31Khz with these low game resolutions?

The answer is this: The vertical refresh rate is a simple calculation: Hfreq divided by lines. Therefore as the number of lines is reduced, the vertical refresh rate goes up. So for a vertical resolution of 256, the vertical refresh would be 121Hz, which the monitor (probably) cannot handle. This is why PC monitors cannot display these resolutions natively. The option of reducing the pixel clock is not there because SVGA monitors cannot display under 31Khz Horizontal. A few high-resolution arcade monitors can display the entire range 15Khz - 31Khz and these are ideal but expensive.

25 Khz monitors. If you have a choice, don't go for one of these. They cannot display any of the early games at native resolutions as the scan rate is too high. Only a few games used these monitors and only these few games can be displayed 100% accurately on them.

pucci ha scritto: è quella dei 15khz e dei 31khz?

Per i 15KHz 640x288@50Hz o 640x240@60Hz o 800x600@50Hz interlacciata

Per i 31KHz 640x480@60Hz e forse 800x600@50Hz.

ho trovato un altro sito che sembra vere a catalogo dei quadrifrequenza!:

http://www.alvaamusement.com/id5.html
http://www.alvaamusement.com/id4.html

e anche questo: http://www.videotronicsuk.com/index.php ... t&Itemid=1

dobbiamo sbrigarci perchè il futuro è questo (monitor LCD da innestare in chassis CRT...): http://www.hantarex.co.uk/New%20PDF/LCD ... %20MTC.pdf (come rimpiazzare un bellissimo EV/3 della Hantarex!

altre info su monitor trifrequenza: http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6821

Tosh PF, Sanwa PFX and Nanao MS29-31A

Tosh PF = The best 31K picture money can buy!! Crisp picture.
Sanwa PFX = 31K almost as good as Tosh!! Also a fantastic 15K picture
Nanao MS29-31 = 15K is nice, 31K is not as good as the other 2 monitors. Also being curved means the quality isn't so nice. Also these are prone to errors (especially the magnet strips on the yoke, causing poor convergence).

Sanwa PFX is the winner for overall quality, and user controls.

Tosh PFX is a dream monitor for games like Outrun 2.

Nanao MS29-31, like the BlastCity is sadly overratted IMO.

ottimo il Pentranic

After, you find 3 models who are really really great but IMO, they are under even if they are tri/quadri sync :

- Toshiba of NNC & 1st gen. of Egret III (pure flat tri sync)
- Sanwa PFX (pure flat tri sync)
- Pentranic (pure flat quadri sync, the curved i dunno its worth i never saw it running)

As the MS32 is curved, it will never be beaten on the focus compared to a pure flat screen. But, of course it's for a maniac eye :crazy: Anyway i prefer the brightness and the contrast of the Nanaos.

MS32 for the 31, MS9 for the 15 ... and rock'n'roll beybey !

attenzione al 2930!!!

Can someone tell me the difference between the MS2930 and MS2931?

2930 is analogue with manual res switching
2931 is digital with auto res switching

Keep in mind, if you are using this for MAME, that Neimen displays are Analog, not Digital. You will have to make adjustments when switching between resolutions (Tri Sync 15KHz, 25, etc...). I have heard many good things about Neiman and Makvision, but BOTH are analog. When installing these you will need to make sure you have access to adjust the settings depending on the game each time.

The only two digital ones that I know of are Wells 9800 and the Betson Multi sync.

Supposedly the Betson and 9800 have memory settings for the 3 sync settings. I'd prefer to set them once and not again (at least less often).

è bello vedere tante opinioni, e ognuna dice una cosa diversa...

i have had failures with nearly all models in one form or another within a few months. Angry!


the niemens seem to either work or don't...if it works it will work for a long time, if it breaks down, the fix is usually simple...

wellsgardners seem to have the same problems over and over...either bad choice in electronics, or running them beyond spec. easily fixed because of the mass distribution offers many outlets of repair

yet other monitors just seem to be assembled incorrectly...full of bad solder joints, numerous tweak repairs (read: hacked) bad designs to begin with...

seems they don't even test some of them anymore and show up DOA

but if i had to choose i would choose niemen, at least rick rolls (lol) the boards, so if you have a problem he's here for you....

I had a D9800 fail literally a month after I got it so they wouldn't be on the top of my rec list.

I Can't speak for everyone as I am sure someone will have had a problem, but I have had a d9800 running strong for almost 2 years now, no issues at all very happy with it.

insomma... è tutta una questione di culo!

only ever seen a few tri sync digital chassis,i think the d9400,weiya 29 series and the nanao 31 series

I love the digital controls on my Betson but the convergence and geometry are TERRIBLE!!

Insomma... è un bel casino!
Chi si fida a spendere tutti quei soldi per poi rischiare di avere questi problemi elencati e magari una qualità dei 15KHz non all'altezza?

Se il monitor dovesse arrivare guasto (DOA come dice sopra) che si fa? Si rispedisce a spese proprie?

Kernel ha scritto:Insomma... è un bel casino!
Chi si fida a spendere tutti quei soldi per poi rischiare di avere questi problemi elencati e magari una qualità dei 15KHz non all'altezza?

Se il monitor dovesse arrivare guasto (DOA come dice sopra) che si fa? Si rispedisce a spese proprie?

Come ho detto prima, mi sa che a sto punto mi tengo i miei 15 khz, e se propio devo, mi trovo un bel monitor nuovo (prima che si esauriscano del tutto) qua in Italia, di modo che non sto a fasciarmi la testa su dogana e spedizioni:


magari mi faccio una bella gita con la morosa per l'Italia con monitor per souvenir

Kernel ha scritto:Insomma... è un bel casino!
Chi si fida a spendere tutti quei soldi per poi rischiare di avere questi problemi elencati e magari una qualità dei 15KHz non all'altezza?

Nn posso che darti ragione, e' un bel casotto, tra l'altro ho provato a richiedere delle info piu' precise riguardo alle frequenze supportate e sembra che chi li venda a volte nn sappia nemmeno di che sto parlando, ecco una classica risposta:
"SORRY , I DO NOT KNOW KILAHERTZ RATIO ON MONITORS ?? THAT WHY I SUGGESTED YOU SPEAK WITH SERVICE"
COme si puo' vendere un articolo da 400 dollari e nn sapere nemmeno le caratteristiche?
La maggior parte si limita a dire che e' un multifrequenza come nel caso che riporto sotto...

Kernel ha scritto:Se il monitor dovesse arrivare guasto (DOA come dice sopra) che si fa? Si rispedisce a spese proprie?

Mi sa che nn ci sono vie alternative, o si rispedisce alla casa madre a spese dell'acquirente (ovviamente da escludere), oppure ci si affida ad un bravo tecnico sperando sappia dove mettere le mani su un monitor un po' piu' complesso della norma...

Nel frattempo mi hanno risposto quelli della Betson, il solo 25 pollici e' perfetto:

27" 44-4071-DF
http://www.betson.com/products/IMP-44-4070-RT
HIGH RES MONITOR
HORI FREQ 30-40 KHZ
VERT FREQ 47-90 HZ
AC POWER 90-240V / 50/60HZ / 2.5AMP
495 usd

25" 44-4024-00
http://www.betson.com/products/parts/IMP-44-4024-00
HORO FREQ 15/24/31 KHZ
VERT FREQ 47-70 HZ
AC POWER 100-240V / 50/60HZ / 100W/1.8AMP
399 usd

Del sanwa pfx che mi dite? Sembrerebbe essere un buon monitor... peccato per le spese di spedizione... troppo care...

dudunkle ha scritto:Del sanwa pfx che mi dite? Sembrerebbe essere un buon monitor... peccato per le spese di spedizione... troppo care...

tutti dicono essere fantastico come resa, forse un pò meno in affidabilità. riguardo alle spedizioni il metodo Harlok dovrebbe ridurle di molto (lui ordina 4 monitor e poi li andiamo a prendere a casa sua!)

PaTrYcK ha scritto:Nel frattempo mi hanno risposto quelli della Betson, il solo 25 pollici e' perfetto:

di questi non hanno detto niente?

IMP - 27" DIGITAL GOLDEN T BIG/BUCK
http://www.betson.com/products/parts/IMP-44-4070-IT

IMP - 27" DIGITAL MULTI SYNC GLOBAL
http://www.betson.com/products/parts/IMP-44-4070-VR

inoltre sembrerebbero avere ancora a catalogo il D9200 (che è un monitor fantastico e robusto)

http://www.betson.com/products/parts/WG ... 2-UU0TS09B
http://www.betson.com/products/parts/WG ... 92-U0TS42A

forse qualcosa troviamo!